Yarn with Tyson Yunkaporta

[INTRO]

Tyson Yunkaporta: [00:00:00] That's your true identity. It's just how you've made kin in the world we're related to everything in the universe. And how have you increased that relation and strengthened those relationships in pairs, in exclusive groups and in broader groups, and then also just for yourself.

Jenny Stefanotti: That's Tyson Yunkaporta. I know he needs no introduction for many of you, but for those of you not familiar with Tyson's work, he's an academic member of the Appal Clan in Far Northern Queensland, an author of San Talk, how Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World. This is the Denizen podcast. I'm your host and curator, Jenny Stefanotti.

In this episode, I'm breaking all the rules and bringing you a yarn with Tyson Yarning is an aboriginal practice of [00:01:00] dialogue that is used to create and transmit knowledge. Typically, I do a lot of prep before our conversations, creating an outline of all of the key points I wanna make sure to make.

Instead here I surrendered and trusted Tyson's suggestion to just capture an initial yarn between the two of us. There's some gems in here about identity justice and operating at scale. Tyson also gives us the inside story of Sand Talk, his new book, right Story, wrong Story, and The Soon to Be Published.

Third book of the Trilogy Snake Talk. As always, you can find show notes in the transcript for this episode on our website becoming denizen.com. On our website, you can sign up for our newsletter. I bring our latest content to your inbox alongside information about virtual denizen events. Again, that's becoming denizen.com.

All right. It's an honor to bring you Tyson Yunkaporta,

[INTERVIEW]

Tyson Yunkaporta: so Stefanotti. North or south of the Peninsula?

Jenny Stefanotti: Both. The Stefanotti name is from the north, but my, my grandmother is Castellano from the South from Sorento, so my [00:02:00] grandparents met in New Jersey. Their parents were part of that wave of immigration into the United States at the end of the 1800s,

Tyson Yunkaporta: right?

Yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: Appreciate the question. Yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Well, Mediterranean folks always get a hard time for a while, but then once everybody's, you know, got too many other minorities to be scared of, they have provisional white status.

Jenny Stefanotti: It was actually really fascinating. I did a conversation with someone earlier this year, Barrett Holmes Pitner on TNA side and the erasure of culture.

So he's looks at American history through the lens of TNA side, which you know, obviously happened everywhere, right? You send to these schools and you're stripped of your native culture. In the conversation I had with him, he is talking about whiteness and the interesting kind of assimilation into whiteness of some European cultures.

Mine being [00:03:00] one of them. Yeah. And the loss of culture into becoming white.

Tyson Yunkaporta: It's a default name that doesn't necessarily refer to skin color.

Jenny Stefanotti: Yeah. But

Tyson Yunkaporta: globally, it's sort of a default name for the. In the kind of formal or informal caste systems of most nations, you know? Yeah. It's amazing for many nations at least.

So even in South America, they use white to refer to things. It's complicated.

Jenny Stefanotti: Are you familiar with the paper White Supremacy Culture by Tema Okun? Have you ever heard of it?

Tyson Yunkaporta: No. No.

Jenny Stefanotti: It's interesting. So she wrote it in 1999 and I first encountered it as I stepped into this work with Denizen unexpectedly, somebody sent it to me.

So it articulates all these attributes of white supremacy culture, things like binary thinking, perfectionism, urgency. Yeah. Kind of assumption of comfort, emotions being deprioritized. It's just interesting when I first read it, I just, [00:04:00] the words white supremacy just felt so not me. Yeah. Right. So like that's the extreme racist.

Like, this isn't relevant for me. And, and so it's interesting, even just in my own experience in doing the work over the course of five years now, just seeing it very differently. Yeah. So I think it does connote this notion of dominance culture and even just like the concept of white Barrett stuff is pretty interesting 'cause he gets very philosophical on us and talks about essence versus existence and the idea of whiteness, the essence of whiteness taking priority over existence and how that kind of philosophical underpinning of, of oppression.

Mm-hmm. Um, his work's pretty interesting.

Tyson Yunkaporta: This is tricky because whiteness, even when indigenous people are.

Yeah. Either

Tyson Yunkaporta: as a gaze or as a, the codes that we all have to use. I mean, unless you're lucky enough to be speaking to somebody from your own tribe in your language, or in whatever Creole you [00:05:00] might have established, that whiteness is always there. We think about white supremacy as being this sort of fringe point of view.

Yeah. But it's been fringe for a very long time. The people who speak it out loud.

Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And then there's another big group who just whispers it and then another group is unaware of it or un aware of it, but in denial of its presence as if it isn't there. Yeah. And we always assume when we speak together as people from Bipoc kind of communities or different communities of, you know, connection to the land, et cetera, I guess we assume that isn't there.

There. There.

Jenny Stefanotti: What do mean when say it's.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah, well, it's a wall around the center that protects the center of dominance, but it also [00:06:00] puts up walls because of the border making practices. Sure.

The

Tyson Yunkaporta: border work, border work practices, which is sort of largely a global north kind of practice, but also exists everywhere else, but it's the practices of making nations nation being a concept that's only a a century old.

Yeah. This sort of idea of restricting flows of movement, biological or cultural or in any other way across different spaces protecting from, but then also these are expansive borders that are constantly pushing outwards as well as blocking flows inwards, but they also bring a lot people. From the lands, they conquer within the walls, but then they find ways to wall them off and zone them in there physically, but also discourse and ideas and culture.

Yeah, so those walls are always there. But like I said, walls invite activity [00:07:00] at the margins as well. There's birds sort of perch on them and nest on them and crap on them, and lichens and mosses and spiderwebs and ant nests and all kinds of things start to populate those walls and graffiti and drug deals and secret tive, romantic in the dark against the, these.

Boundaries as sites of increase, as sites of meeting and making kin. And so inevitably the other and those from the margins and making creative use of walls we're very good at it.

Jenny Stefanotti: This makes me think of one of the things that I did have on, usually I'm very prepared and I [00:08:00] just decided to surrender, uh, as Adrian rebrand would say, less prep, more presence.

I read a little bit, but not like I usually do of your work, and so I'm appreciating surrendering into something different with you. But one of the things that did come up as I was reading Sand Talk and I'm just gonna just see like pop these in as I have them in my head, and it's just something that I've been thinking a lot about and interested in exploring more is just this question of identity.

Hmm. Right, right. Because I think early on in the book you mentioned something about we don't identify with this. We identify with lots of different things and the the need for belonging, and yet the ways in which belonging others, I'm always pondering this question of, of identity and what we identify with and the ways that identity separates, and so I'm curious just how you sit with this question of identity in the context of the state of the world and the way that we want the world to be or to become.

Yeah. Or to go back to,

Tyson Yunkaporta: well, for us, your [00:09:00] identity is your web of relationships. It's something that's held collectively and the only thing really unique about your identity. Your web of relations forms a pattern and a fingerprint that's not the same as anyone else on the planet. Even your close brother sort of will have a different web of relations just because you are in it and not at the center of it, even if you only know the same people and your web includes places.

Energies and entities, but also non-human relations or your kin and your maps. It's, you may not be on a homeland or even know where your homeland is, or you may have never been there like that ancestral, biological homeland, but your migratory sort of roots, your roots of travel and journeys, that is a map and that is a [00:10:00] place and that's unique to you as well.

Mm. So for us, like identity is something that's kind of in an extended, sort of embodied,

Jenny Stefanotti: ever evolving.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. Network that's beyond yourself, your body,

Jenny Stefanotti: you

Tyson Yunkaporta: know? But that sort of the way digital technology has sort of moved people in the last decade or two. It sort of has people approaching identity and holding identity is something that's personal, individual, unique, but also defined externally by a acid.

Profile made of, you know, different categories of ethnicity and gender and sexuality and things like this. That's the identity. And we're all kind of trapped in this way of presenting an identity to the world. A mask that's a practice that's more like marketing and branding. So we create this profile [00:11:00] and it's not really an identity.

Jenny Stefanotti: It's like a persona more than your

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. Your passport is an id.

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Identity. And so that's something in relation to the state and the state as a subject. But then we also have this digital profile. Mm. And so that's one identity. And then there's an identity as the AI and data miners know it, which is all your metadata and your, your habits and patterns and timings and cycles and responses to stimuli and to different narratives, different discourses they have that, that's a profile that's unaware, but.

'cause every skill you have is coming from a body of knowledge that has a genealogy [00:12:00] and, and that you, I

Jenny Stefanotti: appreciate that, uh,

Tyson Yunkaporta: have learned in relation and that sits in the space between you and the others who have taught you that or who practice that with you in your community of practice. So that's your true identity.

It's just how you've made kin in the world we're related to everything in the universe. And how have you increased that relation and

strengthened

Tyson Yunkaporta: those relationships in pairs, in exclusive groups and in broader groups, and then also just.

Jenny Stefanotti: Yeah. It's just a, yeah. Yeah. It's moving away from the, even just the story of what I am. Yeah. As an individual. Think your comments also got me thinking about, I think you talked about it in the book, these sort of different ways of knowing, different ways of thinking. Mm-hmm. One of Denizen's partners [00:13:00] is the Context Institute.

Robert Gilman, you probably haven't heard of it. Robert Gilman. He's sort of, he's sort of an OG in the environmental space. I have a series of conversations coming up with him and one of them is about modes of cognition and he talks a lot about categorical thinking and language. You speak so much to it in the book about just how limited it is and you compliment the book with images and so that we just don't get stuck in these sort of narrowly defined ways.

Another one of the sort of threads of the conversation is just the legacy of the enlightenment and the emphasis on reason is our way of understanding the world and how limited that is, and to how to become more embodied. Mm-hmm. So there's this whole kind of universe of, yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Well that's, I mean, you mentioned that idea of context.

Jenny Stefanotti: Context

Tyson Yunkaporta: is all the field is all, but then the problem of categorization, so even categorizing things as high context or low context cultures or ways of [00:14:00] thinking, cognition. The global north tends to be more low context. You

know,

Tyson Yunkaporta: culture and cognition and then the global south tends to be more high context, but that's not, you know, something that the planet made and that's not how it's always been.

And it also, if you are using that as a law or even as a theory set in stone, you're not gonna make useful predictions. About relationships and projects, you know, with people from the global north and from the global south because you know the global south is, people are migrating north constantly to follow the resources and wealth that's extracted from the south and channeled into the north.

When a place is sucked dry, a lot of people will follow those resources and wealth north. So there's a lot of the global south in the global north and vice versa. The global south is only known as the global south because of the global north, and it's defined as such [00:15:00] interrelation, asymmetrical relation of dominance and subservience.

Mm mm

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. So it's a useful generalization when you're sort of speaking in abstracts, but if you are actually designing planning or modeling in particular for design in the moment or for predictive modeling, those frames don't actually help because. Humans are unpredictable. Mm-hmm. Humans are difficult to categorize.

One of

Tyson Yunkaporta: these broad things you may wish to bring a particular kind of thinking into your startup and those traits of cognition may be quite common to. Who are white males. And so you might say, well, we need that kind of thinking in, so we need to hire a woman of color. But just basing it on that categorization does not necessarily mean that that woman of color is gonna have the kind of thinking that you are ascribing to her demographic category.

Yeah. You

Tyson Yunkaporta: know? [00:16:00] Yeah. People are unpredictable, there are outliers, and even at the top of the bell curve, in the average, there's so much variation that it's difficult to take actions in the real world based on those broad categories. Here's where complexity comes in, and context is all, but I would add another word, relational.

So your relational context is what's really significant.

Jenny Stefanotti: Mm. You said something in there around dominant and subservient got me thinking of the imu

Tyson Yunkaporta: Hey story. Yeah. Yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: Well this is so interesting. So this is just like, I forget exactly how you said it. Like the kind of original thought that led to the whole mess was that I'm better than, Hmm.

And this has come up in my conversations recently because I, this is a hard pill to swallow for so many of us that work in this space. When we get to the, I am better than all these people doing this extractive thing. Mm. Right? And so how can we, [00:17:00] if we're really going to be in that older state of consciousness, we have to get off of our high horse and off of our self-righteousness and like understand that we're all just figuring it out.

I don't know. How do you sit with that? Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: It's about how much you have invested into your sense of value as an individual and the value that you're

bringing. Mm, yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: You know, there's this idea, and it's very mechanistic and it's very technocratic. This idea that each individual has a net value, like a net benefit or a net drain on the world, you know?

And that your value as an individual is determined by that. And so, you know, those of us who are quite committed to having an impact on the world, that's gonna be positive. We end up clinging to that as an ego thing. You may wish to make things more distributed, more collective, more heterogeneous. You know, you may be working towards that, but you are coming to that with a [00:18:00] idea of, well, I'm better than people who aren't thinking like that.

And people who are doing the opposite of that. And I guess we all have that kind of hero complex thing going on that needs to be checked. The hero thing. That's why we need those cautionary tales. Like the

Jenny Stefanotti: imu. Do you wanna tell the story of the IMU for those who haven't heard it? Yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: But it also lets you off the hook so you're not like shaming yourself or punishing yourself when you find this, when you find you're doing it.

Yeah. And you're also being more understanding of others who are doing that when you have these stories. 'cause you understand that these cautionary tales from the dawn of creation are telling us that, hey, this has always existed. It always will. This tendency towards I I, I. That's

keeps

also destructive unchecked. [00:19:00] But we saw it at the dawn of creation with that IMU and all our stories, a lot of them are about that IMU getting carried away with himself and going, look at me, look at me. I can run faster. So that story in, uh, sand Talk was from Western Australia when they had the first meeting, the first general meeting, like a committee sitting down to assign roles to kangaroo, a kidner, gona, emu, tree, and human, all these as equal sort of potentialities in spirit who are coming into a physical existence and deciding on what their roles will be.

And so trying to figure out who will be the custodial species, the ones who care for everything and work right across all the different species and symbiosis, and manage the landscapes to keep creation in motion. And Amy wants it because he wants to actually be the boss, not the steward. Mm. [00:20:00] He wants to be the god king of all the one and the only.

Mm. He just goes crazy running around, kicking up dust, saying, look, see how fast I can run? I'm more powerful than you all. And of course, disaster ensues. And in that confusion, the humans who end up getting the role of, of looking after creation, those things aren't laid out with all the right protocols because the meeting's disrupted by the emu.

So you end up with these humans wandering and making mistakes, terrible mistakes, and having to, um, spend eternity correcting those. Mm, yes, we have that. Well, in my clan.

The enemy of our main totem, which is the broga. It's like a crane.

Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: But these are female entities and so you know, the way they do it, the dysfunction there is jealousy and the emu stealing all the eggs and the children of the broga [00:21:00] because children bring status. Yeah. So forever after the Broga people and that bird, you know, only has one or two chicks, children, you know, whether emu people have more, our stories don't have those happy ever after endings, or those clear morals or lessons that you get in fables and folklore entails from the global north.

They don't have those. They're all just like, well, that's just how it's now. Yeah. He killed him

Jenny Stefanotti: more, matter of fact.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. The bad guy killed the good.

The end, you know? Yeah. Often there isn't that fair punishment consequence might be that all these protagonists get turned to stone, but that's not just a bad guy. That's the perpetrator and the victim. And the rescuer.

Mm-hmm. You know,

Tyson Yunkaporta: all tragically, [00:22:00] tragically ended. Oh yeah. And then they stay this side and you can walk those lines between those stones in the landscape and sing those songs.

So they remain as teachers for that story, you know, forever. But it's a very sort of open curriculum. Mm. Discovery learning going on there.

Jenny Stefanotti: Okay. So your comments made me think of three different things. I'm gonna get, we're gonna do a choose your own adventure.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Oh yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: Three different things came up and so let's decide which one we wanna go.

One is just this concept of stewardship and this kind of paradigm shift from ownership to stewardship. That's one thing we could explore. The other one is the drama triangle. Which I'm sitting with a lot in my own personal life right now. But then you also said something that I also have flagged, and we can maybe talk about all three of these, but let's see where we wanna go next.

Mm-hmm. Which is about punishment. And so I thought it was actually really, really, really interesting what you mentioned in sand talk about punishment, which is very, it's like very swift, and then [00:23:00] it's over. There's no record, right? Mm-hmm. And so just talking about justice, they're all juicy. I don't know which one, which one's calling you?

Tyson Yunkaporta: Well, that's it. The justice is a tricky one because what does that mean? Does that mean restoring things to balance and complexity for all? What does that mean? Maintaining uneven power relations, but just moving one group or person to the top of that pyramid? Or is it a revenge, like a revenge killing?

Jenny Stefanotti: Well, that's the thing is like the punitive models of justice or the dominant models of justice, I've explored these concept of punitive justice, restorative justice, transformational justice.

Yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: Right. But the justice that you talked about was sort of like punitive justice swiftly. Mm-hmm. No criminal record.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. It's not, that person is not excluded forever and it's not like even an apology needed or anything like that. Like, I can't think of a word in aboriginal language for, sorry. Or apology.

Jenny Stefanotti: Oh, really? [00:24:00]

Tyson Yunkaporta: Um, it's just, there is consequence and that happens, and then part of that consequence is shame. And that's the worst part.

Mm. But

Tyson Yunkaporta: because you're not an individual that is born collectively throughout your web of relationships, everything in your web of relations feels that shame and carries that shame with you. Mm.

So the

Tyson Yunkaporta: consequence is vast.

Jenny Stefanotti: Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And you carry that until it's put Right. And then you come back into good relation.

Jenny Stefanotti: But how is it put? Right.

Tyson Yunkaporta: There's no punitive or exclusionary criminal record kind of thing. But there is a story. Caution that you now have.

And

Tyson Yunkaporta: that law that you broke, you're now responsible for ensuring that what you've learned about that is shared with people about the importance of that law, but also as a warning, like, Hey, you don't break this one. Look what happened to me.

Ah,

Tyson Yunkaporta: and you know, [00:25:00] because this has happened to me, I have a deeper understanding of that law and its purpose.

And so now, now, therefore I'm steward committed.

Properly, and I'm bought back into my web of relations properly because that entire web is feeling my shame and pain as well. Mm. You know, then forever after that means I am a champion of that. I'm somebody who makes sure everybody is aware

of

Tyson Yunkaporta: how that's wrong and why that's wrong, and I must then be a defender of that.

It's pretty good.

Jenny Stefanotti: Oh, it's beautiful.

Tyson Yunkaporta: It kind of helps. It makes justice as productive.

Jenny Stefanotti: Well, I wanna double click on what does dealt with look like? He's dealt with, but so, well, first of all, I just wanna underscore that's so beautiful, right? The notion that we learn lessons. Mm-hmm. And then once we've learned those lessons, there's a stewardship [00:26:00] responsibility of mm-hmm.

Carrying those lessons forward so other people learn them. It's almost like the, yeah. The law becomes stronger with the stories of people who break the law and have that experience, and that experience then strengthens it, right? Mm-hmm. That's what it sounds like is that's really beautiful.

Tyson Yunkaporta: That's, yeah.

That's, that's it. But I mean, in this sort of donor culture logics Yeah. Like it's unthinkable to think that, I don't know, a murderer is suddenly an authority on thou shalt not kill.

Mm mm

Tyson Yunkaporta: That would be seen as a man. There's a really simple word that unfortunately, my first girlfriend yelled at me in an argument once, and for some reason that blocks me from ever retrieving it.

Jenny Stefanotti: She was being the perpetrator. I can just see

Tyson Yunkaporta: her face every time I try to say the word, I see her face. So although I haven't seen her in like bloody nearly four decades, I'm still in relation with her [00:27:00] to the point that I can't even think about this world. What do they call it? When you are promoting one idea, but you're doing the opposite of them anyway.

You're being hypocritical. Hypocritical, hypocrisy was the word she shouted at me. And that's gone. That's gone. I need, like, I have to be in a different relation with somebody who knows that word to be able to retrieve it. But yes, it seems hypocritical in the dominant culture sort of ways of thinking.

Jenny Stefanotti: When we first taught my children this word hypocritical, I think my daughter shortly thereafter called in, let's say, called in and not called out. My husband said, you're being hip, hypocritical,

Tyson Yunkaporta: hip. I like that.

Jenny Stefanotti: So maybe we can rewrite the words in your brain. Ah, yeah. Hip.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Hip. See that wall in my mind is now getting populated with them

Jenny Stefanotti: some graffiti.

Really

Tyson Yunkaporta: nice, nice little glitches and errors that will help me get through it.

Jenny Stefanotti: Well, that's what's so, yeah, the [00:28:00] punitive justice is like, I hurt you back. You heard me? How's that gonna make anything better? It's just this cycle. Yeah. And I also think it's very interesting culturally, if you look at cancel culture right now.

Yeah, right. It's like the previously oppressed groups have a cultural opportunity to become the oppressor.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: But it's the same thing.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. There must be conflict and in a way, like the victim must be able to take agency as a victim. So when you get that pushback from the heroes and the victims mm-hmm.

Against the perpetrator, that's kind of part of the process, but it's not the end of it. What that does is stimulate communities and webs of relations towards finding a way to kind of naturalize the perpetrator back into a healthy relation, if you know what I mean, to embed it back in symbiotic relations with the system.

So I mean, that idea of punitive justice. It gives people [00:29:00] joy when they're having trouble accessing healthcare and they're losing relatives in that place where you live there. Those people take joy and start to feel a sense of agency with the actions of that man fella. Countrymen of yours there, Luigi.

Right,

Jenny Stefanotti: right, right, right, right, right, right.

Tyson Yunkaporta: They see that revenge killing

Jenny Stefanotti: and

Tyson Yunkaporta: it gives them a sense of wanting to move towards justice and a feeling of agency. But if that just stays in their profile as an identity and is just something to signal about in order to accrue sort of different bits and pieces towards their public facing identity, then it doesn't really go anywhere.

That's the mistake of empowerment as opposed to agency. Mm. Collective agency is where an act like that will start to move people towards action for change and a kind of a move towards more distributed power relationships in the system. But that [00:30:00] takes a lot, and arguably that kind of thing doesn't scale when you have millions of people.

Jenny Stefanotti: That was another. We're bouncing all over the place, but I love it 'cause I did have these little one words to talk about with you. Yeah. Identity was one, justice was one, scale was another one. Right. Because a lot of things hold at small scales that don't hold so well at larger scales.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. There are ways of making that work.

Jenny Stefanotti: But yeah, when we look at technology, technology a means to potentially make things work at scales that weren't possible without it.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. Well, I mean, and there are some abstract concepts that can help you map that and how things can work at scale. So there's the idea of that, hold on, and that kind of nested, fractal idea that if you have a patent that replicates right down from the originating seed and going out to everything else ass in nature, that if you have that, then it is indeed [00:31:00] scalable.

But it is not, if there's a different, more simplified and yet more complicated structure of relations imposed over that order of creation, then it's difficult for things to scale, you know? Of course. And there's all Jeffrey West's ideas around that as well, which map pretty well with maximum power principle and things like that.

And a lot of our understandings about the efficiencies that happen at scale. I mean, there is a sort of a 25% gain to be made in efficiency every time a system doubles, but only to a point. So there are limits to scale in that way. In nature. Like Blue Whale is about as big as you can get in our current Earth system.

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: For example. And beyond that, it becomes inefficient and can't exist for long. You know? But there are things like cancer that kind of ignore the maximum power principle and seek to expand beyond the limits of the relations around it. Cancer is a, that has [00:32:00] low context of behaviors. Yeah. Scale is interesting, but in our way, if the law that you follow in your intimate relations

mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Is based on the same law goes out in circles of governance. Logic and governance protocols

in

Tyson Yunkaporta: your culture that can scale because at each new circle, that's a self-managing thing. Mm.

Jenny Stefanotti: I appreciate that.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And if everybody is following that pattern

Jenny Stefanotti: down

Tyson Yunkaporta: to the smallest circle, then the whole thing works well and you can have interdependent and just systems that can trust each other enough in their border work and boundary relations.

Mm-hmm.

They

Tyson Yunkaporta: can trust enough that there will be battles, but there won't be large scale wars and there won't be invasions. And that transgressions can be worked out between parties and that the entire continent and oceans and everything else beyond [00:33:00] just the local, that these things could be managed interdependently.

Because what you're managing is the flows.

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: The biodiversity in your region doesn't actually belong to your region because most of it is seasonal. And migrates across other bio regions seasonally or migrates to below the ground for hibernation, et cetera, et cetera. You know, even the water in your regional system is migratory.

The air, the wind, the stars, constellations, all these things migrate in cycles. So the health of your system was dependent on the systems beyond it and vice versa. Mm. And so your border work necessarily in nature, membranes have to be permeable. You regulate the flows of what comes across your place and who comes through it, and how they, how they behave in it.

You regulate these things, but you [00:34:00] don't block them. You don't block those flows. Mm. Uh, if a new species comes in and begins misbehaving, predating right across the system, then your task is not to. That because that never works. Not because it's bad, but just that it doesn't work. So your task is to ensure that that species very quickly adapts and comes into and form symbiosis and pairs and in threes and fives, and that they end up in symbiotic relations, so that that checks the scaling of their misbehavior.

Mm. So it's funny with scale. Scale doesn't need limits, but that are kind of natural and around it. You know, the same way you work with your kids. Mm-hmm.

You know,

Tyson Yunkaporta: you can slam like a formal limit on them and a punishment. They'll always work their way around those walls though. Mm. And they don't learn that behavior as something that's part of them.

But if you do that, I don't [00:35:00] agree with the nudge theory, by the way, from that classic one.

Jenny Stefanotti: Yeah. Yeah. The behavioral I can, yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: But there is truth in how you design your environment, infrastructure, protocols, movements of the group, et cetera. How you design those for everything in it to sort of flow towards a certain way of being, and that does work

Jenny Stefanotti: and

Tyson Yunkaporta: that works with your children.

Yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: I appreciate what you said about the interpersonal like relation and it radiating out. I've done a lot of conversations on the inner work and the relational work. Mm-hmm. Relational conflict, and then we kind of, then yeah. Then we go up and, and we go all over the place. But I find that those conversations that really, like, those are the conversations that really land for everyone.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Mm-hmm.

Jenny Stefanotti: Right? Mm. And so I'm curious and

Tyson Yunkaporta: it's, and the economic always has to come because all of these things are economies.

Jenny Stefanotti: Yeah, absolutely.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Systems where there is flow exchange, energetic signaling, informatic, signaling throughout, [00:36:00] these are all economies, natural systems.

Jenny Stefanotti: I'm curious, what does this look like in your household?

What are some of the practices? How does this play out in your household?

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah, I don't know. We kind of have blocks that hasn't settled yet. We've been 10 years doing that, and it hasn't really come into balance yet. Mm. There's, I don't know. It's about different perceptions between things being designed so that rules and behaviors are built in, embedded in the system of the house.

There can be ideas of that as being chaotic or random or undisciplined and you know, there's different frames that happen with people, but slowly as you strengthening and enriching that relation, that comes into balance. But there can be disruptions to the system, like in our house, of suddenly having two tiny neurodivergent children.

Mm-hmm. Who are chaos, but the work that you have to do as a carer for them, that actually prepares you really well and changes you [00:37:00] to be able to be open and receptive. And I guess also there's that feeling. That we've had in this house of temporary and precarious kind of existence here. And that that desire to migrate back north again?

Jenny Stefanotti: You might.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. Well, it's, I mean, we were always supposed to be down south just as a temporary thing. Mm. But we've kind of become anchored here because of our children's conditions. They have to have access to particular specialists and things that, that we don't have up north. Yeah. So we're kind of in a bit of a holding pattern.

Mm. But yeah, I mean, outta that cow, I mean that really tempers you and gives you a bigger range of a reaction. So we're still pretty volatile, so it doesn't really work in our house yet.

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: That kind of thing. Wow. We all got our different ideas about that. So, I mean, these things I talk about, these are things that are functional in the culture and in the community collectively, but capital makes monsters of us all.

[00:38:00] And you know, it's a rare thing to find a family that is completely functional and

Yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Operating within our, our law. Mm. Because it's a very difficult thing to follow our law. So we keep the stories and hold those values, and even as we break them, we hold them and keep them against the time that we're able to actually live them properly again.

I don't know, but it's been very cool because the Sand Talk, it's a trilogy, it's a sort of sand talk is trilogy from Sand Talk to then Right Story, wrong Story, which is looking at that chaos and madness of disinformation and post truth. Well, trying to find its way back to complexity outta madness. But the third one we've been working on for a, but the third one is actually coauthored.

Because the problem with Sand Talk and with the next one is that it's me, right? As a self, [00:39:00] which kind of insight is impeded that way, but we're actually writing it. My spouse and I who have such different world views. So she's a monotheist and there's good and evil and there's right and wrong. Mm. There's justice is an eye for an eye and et cetera, et cetera.

Like she does have that and I've got a very different way. Yeah. But together, I mean us two working on a book where we're going all around the world. 'cause the book is called Snake Talk. We both believe and feel these serpent entities as the law in the land as not being just something that belongs to Aboriginal people in Australia, but exists all around the world.

And that there are serpents in the land that have the law and keep the law and that. What existed before monotheism and before civilization. So there is this raw law in the land that every continent has, that every people [00:40:00] has these stories of serpents and dragons and these entities of earth and water and sky that keep the law.

And yeah, it's very cool how common mm-hmm. That law is. It has a potential for us all to have the same foundation in our ways of being.

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And how we can meet together in embassy, on that foundation of law and actually build inter dependencies from that.

Jenny Stefanotti: Hmm. Can you say more about the right story?

Wrong story? 'cause this has just come out, right? This just got a copy a couple weeks ago.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Well, this one, it was a hard book. So I'm bipolar and I wrote Sand Talk in two weeks during a. Extreme manic episode where I just had superpowers temporarily, which meant startling brilliance, peppered with just insane, weird stupidity and grandiosity throughout.[00:41:00]

So you have to be discerning when you read sand talk and I worry about people not being discerning.

Jenny Stefanotti: How so?

Tyson Yunkaporta: Well, so the chapter on medicine bad.

Fallacies. Mm. False binaries for example, you know, natural medicine, good synthetic medicine, bad kind of thing.

Jenny Stefanotti: Got it.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. Also

Jenny Stefanotti: the either or thinking, but

Tyson Yunkaporta: also, yeah, and really cherrypicking and using anecdotal arguments from anecdote to kind of portray public medicine as this clunky evil tyrannical sort of thing that doesn't work for anybody, but really cherry picking stuff for that.

Ah, there's, I find one paper that says there's more deaths from vitamin D deficiency than there is from skin cancer. So therefore, public health campaigns telling people to cover up and avoid the sun is. I mean, I found one paper that said that, which [00:42:00] was very quickly debunked in peer review. Mm. Because it was using really selective data and just the body of all the other evidence around shows that it's far more complex than that.

And that indeed many lives, the benefit of that public health intervention is far greater than, than the harms that it might cause. And it came outta the fact, came outta the fact that I don't like hats.

I resent being told to wear a hat when I'm outside, which happens all the time. And I'm like, no, I'm not wearing a fricking hat. I hate them. They itch my head and that's it. That's all it was. But I managed to spin out this massive argument about it that actually a lot of people, because it was just before Covid, and so a lot of people were using that to justify.

Right. That's right. Very, very bad and very dangerous thinking. And I wonder how many people that chapter killed?

Jenny Stefanotti: It was 2020, the book came out. [00:43:00]

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. 2019 here.

Jenny Stefanotti: Okay. Yeah. I remember looking on it the other day. It's 2020.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. And it's true that our medicine as a process of inquiry is brilliant as indigenous people.

Jenny Stefanotti: Mm-hmm. And that our

Tyson Yunkaporta: bush medicine is highly effective, but only in the bush,

Jenny Stefanotti: right,

Tyson Yunkaporta: in the right season. And with the other seasonally available substances, food, et cetera, that are there in that season. But it's something to grind up and put in a supplement and send to the other side of the world

for

Tyson Yunkaporta: just random times of places and people is some, it's not as effective and also it's not effective.

We don't have bush medicine for syphilis here.

Cancer treatments and always have been for very different forms of cancer that were much more infrequent and benign. They're [00:44:00] not treating the vicious forms of cancer that have kind of started ripping through Mm. Every family on the planet, you know, over the last century. It's very different. But those complexities, those subtleties were very much missed in that chapter.

And it's very much missed a lot in the complexity space. The people who are drawn to complexity theory, it's people who understand the natural world and would like to see that reflected around us, and that's good. But then also it's coaches in the coaching industry because there's really catchy little things that you can turn into.

Mm-hmm. Good heuristics. Mm-hmm. That look and sound really cool. And if you can include, hey, wow, there's some native wisdom in this as well, then that. Adds value to what you're selling. Yeah. And of course then the, the coaching industry, you know, there's a lot of developmental models there that are very attractive to a lot of different kinds of people.

Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: It's a soft way and a [00:45:00] gentle way of reinforcing hierarchies and accruing and protecting power. So that, uh, attracts a lot of other people. It's also a good way to, you can dodge a lot of critique and you can dodge a lot of troubling aspects of reality to get in your way when you wanna push a particular message in using complexity theory because, you know, you can just take another path around it and avoid it while you're pretending to see the entire system of relations, which are not.

So, it also, it tracks a lot of dark people, like dark thoughted people, intellectual, dark web sort of people really like that. And a lot of the people who've experienced. The punishment, you know, and the justice of people being critical of their actions and ideas and have felt that there's no way of escaping the shame of that.

And so they kind of take on really vengeful and [00:46:00] grievance oriented sort of approaches. So find people like Jordan Peterson, et cetera. They're able to use complexity theory to make their stuff sound justified and to jujitsu their way around accountability for any of the damage they do, or the bad ideas, simple ideas that they put forward.

And they're able to receive monies from the fossil fuel lobbies and sort of go well. These are actually really complex systems. And then they can cherry pick a few things from complexity theory to cast doubt on,

Jenny Stefanotti: justify the idea, whatever story they wanna tell,

Tyson Yunkaporta: changes even happening. Or if it is, is it actually important?

Yeah. And hey, you know, adaptation, what we all we need to do is adapt drill, baby drill, and then we just adapt to the change. Come on, what's wrong with you? Can't you adapt? Well, here's this developmental model. It was a peer, remember we've turned it into a spiral and now it's a spiral dynamics sort of thing.[00:47:00]

And we've included indigenous ways of thinking in there that used to be at the bottom, but now it's kind of at the center of the spiral. And you can maintain that as you ever go along. Yeah. But as you advance through all these colors of personal development, like their fricking karate belts or something.

So as I say that, it's a really troubling space to be in.

Mm. The

Tyson Yunkaporta: complexity theory, I got really excited about it in Sand Talk because. I felt like it was a good frame to be able to get across to people that they would've a prerequisite cognitive frame to be able to receive the complexity of indigenous knowledge systems and indigenous systems knowledge.

Yeah. But that came with a lot of baggage too, and there's a lot of audience capture that happens there as well. I got that. I was quite radicalized to some weird ideas for a time.

Jenny Stefanotti: Tell me a little bit more about your new book.

Tyson Yunkaporta: The new book is Far more Exciting. Oh yeah, right. Sorry. Wrong Story is a good book for [00:48:00] its moment.

It's historical moment,

Jenny Stefanotti: but right now at

Tyson Yunkaporta: this, at this inflection point. Mm-hmm. I feel like it's a very important book and it did anticipate a lot of the things that are happening right now. Mm. At the epicenter of fascism, which is your home. Yeah. It's got some very good things in there that are really helpful with navigating the sort of madness that

Jenny Stefanotti: we're in right now.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Everybody, you know, people who are loving it. They're insane. People who are not loving it, of course, are driven insane by all of the gaslighting and all of the, you know, horrors and then still having to show up for work. Yeah. And so I wrote that when I was in a down, so, so how long that one take? I was in a mania and then this one I was in like a two year suicidal depression.

Oh wow. It took ages. But this one's taken a long time too for a different reason because it's done in relation.

Jenny Stefanotti: The one you're working on now?

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. It's my spouse and I [00:49:00] in dialogue with, uh, craft people, makers around the world who make a serpent, images, artifacts, et cetera. And who keep that old serpent law.

And it's from people all around the globe. Denmark, Ireland,

Jenny Stefanotti: Africa. That's interesting.

Tyson Yunkaporta: India, right across Asia.

Jenny Stefanotti: That these same stories and beliefs were everywhere.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. That there are similar things going right back to, you know, we even talked to some Zoroastrian scholars.

Jenny Stefanotti: Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Because that's their dragon stories.

They were the first to depart from the serpent cults that were there in the Fertile Crescent. And whatever those stories were, these dragon myths, there were the first to depict the serpent as pure evil

that must

Tyson Yunkaporta: be slain by heroes on behalf of kings and on behalf of a singular God of all creation. [00:50:00] So that's where that originated and then ended up becoming St.

George and the Dragon and St. Patrick and all this kind of thing. But even in these sort of monotheistic and the, in these sort of things, even when the is depicted as evil, the purpose of that.

In your inner struggle as a religious person, inner struggle is always to balance the evil and the, your lustful, et cetera, and your destructive influence on the world. It's to sort of check that with the hero inside yourself, with your sense of love that's coming from, that encourages you to connect and make good community and for all.

Jenny Stefanotti: Back to stewardship.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. And so even when the dragons are evil, they always direct us to care for the waterways. Mm. Care for the waterways, but also to respect women. [00:51:00] Although a lot of the monotheistic serpent stories, they equate women with serpents and they seek to dominate and marginalize both. And serpent women and women in partnership with serpents and even in sexual relations with serpents is something that goes right back to the dawn of time.

So it's really important. We've found our thread going through of how important reigniting that relation between women and serpent. Sort of women as earth and see stewards as carers for creation.

Hmm. I appreciate that. In relation

Tyson Yunkaporta: with the snake that there is because they both share the same capacity to evolve in real time.

Like it doesn't take, like a woman's body can change and does change, you know, frequently catastrophically, massively changes, shape, purpose, function. Organs could be moved from [00:52:00] here to here as needed. And snakes have that too. I mean, they can adapt to changes in the environment. The metabolism can change in a season.

Their entire bone structure, their organs function, organ change, everything change and.

Hideous when they eat. So women and snakes have this in common, and so they've always been connected as these kind of guardians of evolution.

Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And guardians of managing change and complexity so that the entire system moves with times of change.

Jenny Stefanotti: So the third book is telling the story of how this exists in traditions around the world.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah, yeah. But through the objects

making sense. Perspective and our type and snake on my side and the [00:53:00] couple carpet snake on my spouse's side.

Jenny Stefanotti: So it's a trilogy. Cultural

Tyson Yunkaporta: side. Yeah, it's a trilogy and snake talk. Uh, rounds it out.

Jenny Stefanotti: There's not another book in there. Yeah. And the first

Tyson Yunkaporta: is in a massive mania. The second one is in a deep depression and the third one is kind of more moderated,

Jenny Stefanotti: even keeled in partnership.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. And also through medication. There we go. So this is medicated Tyson who's able to maintain his relationships in a stable way. That's

Jenny Stefanotti: interesting. I'll read those books with that lens.

Tyson Yunkaporta: The Tyson who wrote Sand Talk violently opposed to medication. Mm. Because that's big pharma, you know, trying to control you.

Mm. Tyson who wrote this one, is very grateful to modern Western medicine.

Jenny Stefanotti: Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: As it enables me to honor my relationships

Jenny Stefanotti: culturally. Full circle.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah, full circle. So, you know, this is a good book.

Jenny Stefanotti: The one that comes last?

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah,

Jenny Stefanotti: the one you're, you're still writing here? 'cause [00:54:00] the

Tyson Yunkaporta: writing? Yeah. Everything that I, no, no.

It's coming out in June here. Okay. But everything, yeah, all the writing I did in that book, it was good writing and

good

Tyson Yunkaporta: thinking, because I had to write as a.

Thought it to be our thought. Us two. Me and woman.

Jenny Stefanotti: I like that. Us so

Tyson Yunkaporta: different, so different from

Meath. Part-time skeptical atheist are working together on something that's so mythological. Mm

Jenny Stefanotti: mm

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. It was really interesting ride.

Jenny Stefanotti: So is that what's top of mind for you these days?

Tyson Yunkaporta: It is. Well, I mean, serpent is big and once you're in it and in that floor, it's hard to stop flying with it.

Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: You know, and it's always been present for us.

And it's a big part of my [00:55:00] cultural practice as Aer

Aer

Tyson Yunkaporta: Palmer, pma, man from up north. So we, I mean, we call all those tribe up there. We call ourselves or bummer. Mm. Because we all use that same word for man. And so being somebody from there, that type is there all the time. Y we, that spirit of the rainbow snake that sort of flows through everything, but then your own y we in your, in your belly and in your body, and that unseen spirit that you carry with you because you know, as.

And in this tradition we'd have spirit wombs, we have spirit children, and these are all part of that, that spirit of that big rainbow snake. Yeah. And we have to have a spear thrower, a er that we use to manage that spirit, protect it, but also protect others from it. 'cause if we're loose with it, then it can harm people.

Mm. So, you know, I've always carried that, of course. [00:56:00] But in taking on this kind of diplomat role of making embassy all around the world with and connecting up all these snakes around the world in this energetic web of reptilian relations, oh my goodness. You know, it's, I started doing that. So I look after it.

I respect. That's when you know the knowledge is good. The point where you realize, oh no, now I belong to this and I have a relational obligation to this knowledge now.

Jenny Stefanotti: I love that. That's interesting. When does it become relational to you? Yeah,

Tyson Yunkaporta: yeah. If you are teaching the Four Secrets to Success in business, you don't feel accountable to that knowledge.

Jenny Stefanotti: Hmm. I love that idea. There's a book by Kevin Kelly, I dunno if you've ever heard of him. It's called What Technology Wants. I mean, it reminds me sort of, [00:57:00] of the story of the serpent too. It's a, the idea that there's a frontier of human knowledge and understanding that's always evolving, and so this is why simultaneously at different parts of the world, different concepts.

Like ideas are kind of like happen, right? Yeah. So your idea, like, you know, simultaneously there's a lot of entrepreneurs who have your same idea, right? Yeah. And the idea that we kind of, and that kind of premise also I think strips out the. Default notion of ownership of the thing. Mm-hmm. Because it is, uh, you know, to your point, relational, it's historical.

It's accumulation of the knowledge itself. I mean, and you know, some describing the knowledge as its own sentient thing that you have a relationship with, and at some point you become a steward of it. A custodian of it.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah. This brings us back to the question you asked earlier, which I began to answer, but I had to do some prerequisite stuff and then I lost [00:58:00] talking about the people in our space who feel this tremendous obligation, but.

Then kind of end up getting carried away with it and their own importance and that ego, that story coming through then, and I mentioned but never came back to it, this uh, the idea of a hero complex.

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Now you just mentioned technology again and that was where I wanted to go with it because in the whole sort of tech bro and sort of coder Well, and where that intersects with the complexity kind of thinkers.

Yeah. There is a really particular brand of hero complex and with the kind of effective altruism and long-termism ideas where people start to realize, oh my goodness, we have to create the AI that will.

Wonderful for everybody. Stop World Hunger and poverty and oppression. I am obligated to do this. I'm responsible [00:59:00] because in the future, the AI singularity will know that I didn't put my all into it. You know, and here's where the Snake Talk book ends with, um, the only serpent we found that is genuinely destructive and not just about bringing things into balance, even if it's evil, that is pure evil and it's pure evil because it's a basal lisk.

The original Greek basal lisk was, you know, a small thing, but then it was rebranded by the British just a century or two ago, like in the new revised Bible. It entered there. So that basal is purely an agent of the powerful, the nobility, the kings, the wealthy. It's a purely an agent of them against the sort of hoards of the oppressed that the.

So they can maintain that grievance. That's the basal lisc. But then this thought experiment came out. Rocos, basi, lisc. Did you come across that? [01:00:00]

Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Oh, okay. Well, that was this huge thing. It was a thought experiment that came out of tech, sort of people online who like to do thought experiments as in the complexity crowd.

You know, we love the thought experiments, all the trolley problems and revisiting these and all that kind of thing. And this one was about an AI in the future at some point that is invented, that can turn earth into a paradise of justice for all and abundance. But then the possibility that that AI.

Would regret the fact that it wasn't invented sooner and could have ended suffering sooner if it wasn't opposed by people or if people weren't putting their a hundred percent effort into creating in the first place. And so then decides that it's going to punish all its people that didn't work towards it when they were aware of its potential existence coming up and all the people who opposed its development.

It will create a virtual reality simulation of hell and trap their consciousnesses in it for [01:01:00] all eternity. As a punishment in the knowledge that anybody who imagined the existence of this future singularity might also tell the story of Rocco's ba lisc, which is this entity and so therefore would be aware of it and it would actually bring it into existence as an entity seeking embodiment in the past, like in this present now, even though it's from the future.

So it finds that time travel loop, and so everybody feels then that kind of extortion of, oh my God, we need to.

Sending overseas to starving people, even if it's exercising soft power, it's like, no, we need to take that away. Every cent needs to go into tech development. So that's where that led and also led to, it was that Zian cult that's been in the news a bit, that sort of group of coders who ended up falling a kind [01:02:00] of a death cult and ended up murdering a bunch of people.

They were kind of, it was Rocko's BA sent Insane that thought experiment. Wow. Yeah. So that's the last chapter in the book is exploring that. Wow. And the idea that it'll probably take all of the primal serpents entities on the planet and people keeping their law and working with those entities will take all of them to defeat this basal, because that BA is Yeah.

Agent of all death. Yeah.

Jenny Stefanotti: Amazing. That's quite a ride.

Tyson Yunkaporta: Yeah, that's a riot. A ride, man, check out the z and the Zian cult stuff. It's like, you'll think, is this real? Right. Um, well, these coders read that and then ended up sort of forming a cult, doing lots of thought experiments to figure out what the best way to save the world [01:03:00] is.

And there were vegans too.

Oh really? Yeah.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And ended up, like, ended up being quite exclusively a trans vegan cult who of, you know, Silicon Valley Long Termist who wanted to save the world and the suffering of all animals and punished for all eternity, anybody who'd ever eaten a bit of meat.

Mm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And yeah.

And they ended up killing a bunch of people. Yeah. But they were all about putting everything towards this, uh, creating this AI singularity. Got it.

Jenny Stefanotti: Got it. Yeah. There's so, uh, so much to think about. That's for sure.

Tyson Yunkaporta: And this is why Right Story, wrong story exists.

Jenny Stefanotti: Mm-hmm.

Tyson Yunkaporta: That book, it's like how to identify Wrong story.

Mm. A wrong story could be a true story, but there to skew reality towards actions that are damage relatedness. Mm. Rather than increase relatedness.

Jenny Stefanotti: Right. Well I can't read to get to that one. It is sitting on my nightstand. [01:04:00]

Tyson Yunkaporta: Well, it'll hurt you a little bit. But that book. Yeah. Yeah.  that will just make you feel wonderful.

[OUTRO]

Jenny Stefanotti: Um. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks to Scott Hanson, also known as Tyco for our musical signature. In addition to this podcast, you can find resources for each episode on our website, www.becomingdenizen.com, including transcripts and background materials for our most essential topics like universal basic income, decentralized social media, and long-term capitalism.

We also have posts summarizing our research, which make it easy for listeners to very quickly get an overview of these particularly important and foundational topics on our website. You can also sign up for our newsletter where we bring our weekly podcast to your inbox. Alongside other relevant denizen information subscribers are invited to join our podcast recordings and engage with the Denizen community in our online [01:05:00] home, the Den.

We're partnered with some incredible organizations at the forefront of the change that we talk about. We share announcements from them in our newsletter as well. Finally, this podcast is made possible by support from the Denizen community and listeners like you, Denizen's content will always be free, offering Denizen as a gift models, a relational rather than a transactional economy.

Enabling Denizen to embody the change that we talk about on this podcast through the reciprocity of listeners like you that we are able to continue producing this content. You can support us or learn more about our gif model on our website. Again, that's www.becomingdenizen.com. Thanks again for listening, and I hope you'll join us next time.

‍